Andrew Extein is
a Los Angeles-based social worker and psychotherapist with a specialty in queer
issues, sexual minorities, young adulthood, and minor-attracted adults. He also
created a web site called MASC Project, which encourages a dialogue on issues of masculinity in queer culture. It's a topic that fascinates us, so we asked Andrew about his thoughts.
The Pathfinder: You're involved in an interesting line of work. As a gay man in your twenties, what made you want to take up those issues as a psychotherapist?
Andrew Extein: I think that my whole life I have been an observer, noticing patterns and codes of different cultural groups. Coming out as gay and entering the gay "community" are very different experiences. The coming out fades, but the gay culture remains an important part of being gay right now--it's inescapable.
So as a result of this, I have had about 10 years to analyze, understand, and interact with gay and queer cultures. Speaking about any of this is highly controversial because everyone's experiences with sexuality and gender are so radically different.
In general terms, I have noticed an immense importance placed on masculinity and the codes associated with it -- voice, mannerisms, clothes, activities, bodies. As a social worker and therapist, I have more deeply explored the psychodynamic experiences of gay men and I am trying to understand how masculinity became so important.
As a gay man in my twenties in 2012, I am partaking in and witnessing a specific cultural moment that is incredibly reliant on social media and technology. In starting my private psychotherapy practice, I want to explore these gay men's issues specific to this cultural moment. And of course, my own life experiences and identity are intertwined with my work, making for some interesting countertransference issues.
The Pathfinder: Looking at the pictures of the guys on your web site, many of them are very muscular and sporting tattoos. They seem obsessed with coming off as "real men." What are you trying to explore with your site?
Extein: If you look at these photos on Tumblr, they get reblogged like crazy. People really enjoy looking at "beauty" in whatever form that takes, and as Tumblr has shown us, there are so many niche groups who have formed community, especially bears. In a lot of ways, this is a good way to explore certain subcultural experiences and seek acceptance.
On the other hand, it could be viewed as a sort of manic, addictive obsession with bodies. These "hot" "masc" guys become a disposable commodity, disappearing down the page as soon as they pop up.
One of the things I want to explore is why do people enjoy this so much? Why do people want to associate and identify with these types of bodies? What do they gain from this obsession? What does it reflect about gay men? What does this say about me, creating a project like this that essentially focuses on the same obsession?
The Pathfinder: I've always thought that being a man has more to do with what's happening on the inside rather than having muscles and tattoos. For example, living by a code of fairness towards others and knowing people can count on my word when I promise them something. It has more to do with what I say and think followed up by my actions than what I look like. Or being cool and graceful under pressure. What's your definition of being a man or "masculine"?
Extein: It's interesting that you say that, because that isn't what I think about at all. Someone else said that to me, and maybe it's a generational thing. And to me it seems problematic that these would be "masculine" traits because then what is feminine? Being unfair, unfaithful, dismissive? It creates a dichotomy that can get really murky.
In what has been instilled in me, through what I have observed, and how I view masculinity based on my own experiences and self-awareness, I think of masculinity in terms of aggression, power, and bodies. To me, a "masculine man" has muscles, a hard face, a big dick, a superficial confidence, a feeling of entitlement, and power over others. These are entirely my own personal associations. I think of "masculine" as something outside of myself, and something that I both revile and completely desire. This dissonance helps drive MASC Project in a lot of ways.
The Pathfinder: That's interesting. I have power as a journalist, but I don't try to use that over people in a weird way. People who use their "power" over others are not manly at all, in my book. They're bullies, and bullies are usually cowards. All that adds up to someone who's not manly.
Also, in terms of your definition of masculinity, if you take that logic all the way through, Gandhi, for example, would have to be less powerful and masculine than the man who killed him, even though Gandhi changed the world.
Anyhow, I'm always thinking what's the healthiest way to live, and that's where all my questions are coming from. What's the healthiest way as gay men and as human beings to live. And I see certain unhealthy things popping up when living a life geared towards power and looks.
I understand what you're saying about things getting murky, but I'm addressing something very specific: What makes someone a "man" or masculine? Your answer seems to indicate that for you it's the outside stuff.
Extein: I guess I don't really have a great answer to this "what makes a man" question. In one of my videos that's up on the MASC site, I actually go around Boston pride and ask random men if they think they are masculine. They were very caught of guard, and rightly so. It's not a question we are forced to answer so frankly.
I can only answer your question personally, and that is that I don't think of masculinity being associated with any sort of character traits that you refer to. For whatever reason, I think of it more in terms of the superficial trappings. I personally was just never instilled with any characteristic values of masculinity. This probably has a lot to do with my family and community values, which didn't exactly emphasize an importance on "manhood."
The Pathfinder: A therapist, who's gay, once told me that all the emphasis on having big muscles was actually a sign of internalized homophobia, and they haven't come to terms about being gay. That they have to prove to themselves and the outside world that they aren't girlie men and they are still a man's man. What do you think about all that? I always thought there's nothing more manly -- or more human -- than accepting yourself 100 percent and living a life that shows that.
Extein: Once again you are showing your associations with manliness and respectable values, an association I just don't have. If anything, I am resentful of masculinity based on my own issues and experiences. I think that there is definitely a lot of truth to what the therapist said.
An emphasis on muscles, aesthetics, and masculine beauty seemingly relates to some type of insecurity and a need to prove oneself. I'm sure a lot of people would argue with me on this because it's not something people want to hear, and it's not even necessarily true. Take this all with a grain of salt.
Growing up gay, we are inundated with cultural messages that gay is bad. Even if you came from the most accepting town and family, you still received broad cultural messages that gay is bad. And more likely, these messages were sent in overwhelming droves, vast and minute. Even if you accept yourself, these values are still very much embedded into our psyches. So in this sense, I think that this homophobia is inescapable.
Even though I hate the term "internalized homophobia," because it seems to blame the gay person rather than society, I think that this definitely contributes to the body-obsessed gay culture that exists today. Not only does it reaffirm one's masculinity or "straightness," but it allows for sexual validation from gay men. This sort of validation can be used as an antidote to the deep psychic pain of growing up gay in a hetero-normative world. To be a sexually desirable gay man is to have a large amount of power. After all, what's more manly than power?
The Pathfinder: Haha...there you go with the power stuff again. Are there any emotional or psychological downfalls that gay men can encounter by focusing so much on the surface -- muscles, tattoos, etc. -- of being a man?
Extein: Oh, of course. I think it starts out the other way around, though. What emotional and psychological issues that lead to a life that demands muscles and tattoos and gym memberships. What do gay men learn while growing up about being a man, being gay, being desirable, being powerful, being sexy? How does this sort of collective psychology inform the greater gay culture?
And then, yes, what emotional and psychological experiences happen while engaging with a "masc" gay culture? Does it enforce certain insecurities, create new ones, help people find peace and acceptance? I don't think anyone really knows the answers to these questions. I have my own limited hypotheses, but I think it is really important for gay men to start thinking very critically about "our" culture.
The Pathfinder: Is it more natural for gay men to actually embrace their feminine side as well as their masculine side? You often read how gay men have a different kind of spirit because we have this feminine/masculine thing going on. So if we're ignoring one of those sides of our natural state, it seems trouble is going to brew. If so, how?
Extein: Yeah, this is true I think. There is an interesting book called The Velvet Rage that explores this a lot. I think that creating strict gender roles for yourself definitely can result in some negative feelings. Suppressing desires and emotions is usually unhealthy, and suppressing a certain gender expression is probably the same.
However, not everyone necessarily feels a strong "feminine" inclination. One of the things I want to explore with MASC Project is the idea of a gay man who is just so naturally and seemingly organically masculine. Someone who is gay and okay with it and happily exists almost entirely in straight communities. What an interesting case study that would be.
I can't speak to the nature of gender in gay men. Everyone is different for a variety of genetic and cultural reasons, but strict gender codes I think are harmful. The more I think about gender, the more confused I get.
The Pathfinder: What are you hoping to achieve with your work?
Extein: As I mentioned before a bit, I just really want to spark dialogue and conversations about masculinity in gay and other queer cultures. We don't need any answers, we don't need to agree on anything, we don't have to come to any conclusions.
I just think that it is incredibly important for us to think critically about what we are doing. Self-reflection is a valuable skill, and it seems to me that the gay community is in dire need of this. Masculinity is also a starting point to open up dialogue about a number of other issues. Basically, I just want us to think about what we are doing, be honest with ourselves and others, and gain empathy for those around us.
Follow The Pathfinder on Twitter and Facebook.
The Pathfinder: You're involved in an interesting line of work. As a gay man in your twenties, what made you want to take up those issues as a psychotherapist?
Andrew Extein: I think that my whole life I have been an observer, noticing patterns and codes of different cultural groups. Coming out as gay and entering the gay "community" are very different experiences. The coming out fades, but the gay culture remains an important part of being gay right now--it's inescapable.
So as a result of this, I have had about 10 years to analyze, understand, and interact with gay and queer cultures. Speaking about any of this is highly controversial because everyone's experiences with sexuality and gender are so radically different.
In general terms, I have noticed an immense importance placed on masculinity and the codes associated with it -- voice, mannerisms, clothes, activities, bodies. As a social worker and therapist, I have more deeply explored the psychodynamic experiences of gay men and I am trying to understand how masculinity became so important.
As a gay man in my twenties in 2012, I am partaking in and witnessing a specific cultural moment that is incredibly reliant on social media and technology. In starting my private psychotherapy practice, I want to explore these gay men's issues specific to this cultural moment. And of course, my own life experiences and identity are intertwined with my work, making for some interesting countertransference issues.
The Pathfinder: Looking at the pictures of the guys on your web site, many of them are very muscular and sporting tattoos. They seem obsessed with coming off as "real men." What are you trying to explore with your site?
Extein: If you look at these photos on Tumblr, they get reblogged like crazy. People really enjoy looking at "beauty" in whatever form that takes, and as Tumblr has shown us, there are so many niche groups who have formed community, especially bears. In a lot of ways, this is a good way to explore certain subcultural experiences and seek acceptance.
On the other hand, it could be viewed as a sort of manic, addictive obsession with bodies. These "hot" "masc" guys become a disposable commodity, disappearing down the page as soon as they pop up.
One of the things I want to explore is why do people enjoy this so much? Why do people want to associate and identify with these types of bodies? What do they gain from this obsession? What does it reflect about gay men? What does this say about me, creating a project like this that essentially focuses on the same obsession?
The Pathfinder: I've always thought that being a man has more to do with what's happening on the inside rather than having muscles and tattoos. For example, living by a code of fairness towards others and knowing people can count on my word when I promise them something. It has more to do with what I say and think followed up by my actions than what I look like. Or being cool and graceful under pressure. What's your definition of being a man or "masculine"?
Extein: It's interesting that you say that, because that isn't what I think about at all. Someone else said that to me, and maybe it's a generational thing. And to me it seems problematic that these would be "masculine" traits because then what is feminine? Being unfair, unfaithful, dismissive? It creates a dichotomy that can get really murky.
In what has been instilled in me, through what I have observed, and how I view masculinity based on my own experiences and self-awareness, I think of masculinity in terms of aggression, power, and bodies. To me, a "masculine man" has muscles, a hard face, a big dick, a superficial confidence, a feeling of entitlement, and power over others. These are entirely my own personal associations. I think of "masculine" as something outside of myself, and something that I both revile and completely desire. This dissonance helps drive MASC Project in a lot of ways.
The Pathfinder: That's interesting. I have power as a journalist, but I don't try to use that over people in a weird way. People who use their "power" over others are not manly at all, in my book. They're bullies, and bullies are usually cowards. All that adds up to someone who's not manly.
Also, in terms of your definition of masculinity, if you take that logic all the way through, Gandhi, for example, would have to be less powerful and masculine than the man who killed him, even though Gandhi changed the world.
Anyhow, I'm always thinking what's the healthiest way to live, and that's where all my questions are coming from. What's the healthiest way as gay men and as human beings to live. And I see certain unhealthy things popping up when living a life geared towards power and looks.
I understand what you're saying about things getting murky, but I'm addressing something very specific: What makes someone a "man" or masculine? Your answer seems to indicate that for you it's the outside stuff.
Extein: I guess I don't really have a great answer to this "what makes a man" question. In one of my videos that's up on the MASC site, I actually go around Boston pride and ask random men if they think they are masculine. They were very caught of guard, and rightly so. It's not a question we are forced to answer so frankly.
I can only answer your question personally, and that is that I don't think of masculinity being associated with any sort of character traits that you refer to. For whatever reason, I think of it more in terms of the superficial trappings. I personally was just never instilled with any characteristic values of masculinity. This probably has a lot to do with my family and community values, which didn't exactly emphasize an importance on "manhood."
The Pathfinder: A therapist, who's gay, once told me that all the emphasis on having big muscles was actually a sign of internalized homophobia, and they haven't come to terms about being gay. That they have to prove to themselves and the outside world that they aren't girlie men and they are still a man's man. What do you think about all that? I always thought there's nothing more manly -- or more human -- than accepting yourself 100 percent and living a life that shows that.
Extein: Once again you are showing your associations with manliness and respectable values, an association I just don't have. If anything, I am resentful of masculinity based on my own issues and experiences. I think that there is definitely a lot of truth to what the therapist said.
An emphasis on muscles, aesthetics, and masculine beauty seemingly relates to some type of insecurity and a need to prove oneself. I'm sure a lot of people would argue with me on this because it's not something people want to hear, and it's not even necessarily true. Take this all with a grain of salt.
Growing up gay, we are inundated with cultural messages that gay is bad. Even if you came from the most accepting town and family, you still received broad cultural messages that gay is bad. And more likely, these messages were sent in overwhelming droves, vast and minute. Even if you accept yourself, these values are still very much embedded into our psyches. So in this sense, I think that this homophobia is inescapable.
Even though I hate the term "internalized homophobia," because it seems to blame the gay person rather than society, I think that this definitely contributes to the body-obsessed gay culture that exists today. Not only does it reaffirm one's masculinity or "straightness," but it allows for sexual validation from gay men. This sort of validation can be used as an antidote to the deep psychic pain of growing up gay in a hetero-normative world. To be a sexually desirable gay man is to have a large amount of power. After all, what's more manly than power?
The Pathfinder: Haha...there you go with the power stuff again. Are there any emotional or psychological downfalls that gay men can encounter by focusing so much on the surface -- muscles, tattoos, etc. -- of being a man?
Extein: Oh, of course. I think it starts out the other way around, though. What emotional and psychological issues that lead to a life that demands muscles and tattoos and gym memberships. What do gay men learn while growing up about being a man, being gay, being desirable, being powerful, being sexy? How does this sort of collective psychology inform the greater gay culture?
And then, yes, what emotional and psychological experiences happen while engaging with a "masc" gay culture? Does it enforce certain insecurities, create new ones, help people find peace and acceptance? I don't think anyone really knows the answers to these questions. I have my own limited hypotheses, but I think it is really important for gay men to start thinking very critically about "our" culture.
The Pathfinder: Is it more natural for gay men to actually embrace their feminine side as well as their masculine side? You often read how gay men have a different kind of spirit because we have this feminine/masculine thing going on. So if we're ignoring one of those sides of our natural state, it seems trouble is going to brew. If so, how?
Extein: Yeah, this is true I think. There is an interesting book called The Velvet Rage that explores this a lot. I think that creating strict gender roles for yourself definitely can result in some negative feelings. Suppressing desires and emotions is usually unhealthy, and suppressing a certain gender expression is probably the same.
However, not everyone necessarily feels a strong "feminine" inclination. One of the things I want to explore with MASC Project is the idea of a gay man who is just so naturally and seemingly organically masculine. Someone who is gay and okay with it and happily exists almost entirely in straight communities. What an interesting case study that would be.
I can't speak to the nature of gender in gay men. Everyone is different for a variety of genetic and cultural reasons, but strict gender codes I think are harmful. The more I think about gender, the more confused I get.
The Pathfinder: What are you hoping to achieve with your work?
Extein: As I mentioned before a bit, I just really want to spark dialogue and conversations about masculinity in gay and other queer cultures. We don't need any answers, we don't need to agree on anything, we don't have to come to any conclusions.
I just think that it is incredibly important for us to think critically about what we are doing. Self-reflection is a valuable skill, and it seems to me that the gay community is in dire need of this. Masculinity is also a starting point to open up dialogue about a number of other issues. Basically, I just want us to think about what we are doing, be honest with ourselves and others, and gain empathy for those around us.
Follow The Pathfinder on Twitter and Facebook.
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